Welcome back to Macroscope in Conversation. I’m here today with Eleanor Sands, CEO and co-founder of Wigmore Wednesdays.
It’s great to be here. Thank you for having me.
Thank you so much for coming in. I guess we’ll kick off by telling me a little bit more about Wigmore Wednesdays and how the idea came about.
Yeah, so I’ve worked in corporate organisations for about twelve years. Last summer, I was sat with a friend that I’d been going to MIPIM with for years and years, and we’d met through the pre-MIPIM event. We were sat there talking about how, as well as going to these amazing conferences, the UKREiiFs and the MIPIMs, we could continue to grow those relationships between conferences in a more natural setting.
After having dinner, we moved across to The Wigmore to have another cocktail. We sat there and I think I went into the toilet. I came back and just set up a WhatsApp group, put all the people I knew into it, and we sat in The Wigmore and said, “Well, what should we call it?”
We said, “Well, what about Wigmore because we could host it here?”
“What day would we do it on? Not Thursday. That’s too much of a busy day in London. What about Wednesday?”
So then we came up with the name Wigmore Wednesdays.
It really just started as a really informal “this is where we’re going to be on a monthly basis, meet us here.”
Then I would say after about the third one, we went from maybe ten or so of us being there to one month where we had almost sixty people there. So we realised that we really were onto something.
Then at MIPIM this year, we got approached by Leicester City Council. They came up to me at a champagne reception and said, “We’ve seen what you’re doing in London. Could you bring this to Leicester?”
Again, I thought, “Well, that’s another buying signal. Maybe we could replicate this throughout the UK. There’s obviously a demand for it.”
We turned it into a business. We registered on Companies House, opened the bank accounts, and it really went from there. Now we’re launching in other cities and we’ve got larger events as well.
So exciting. I think it’s such a unique and interesting idea that’s just not really done. Like you say, it’s a little bit less of a formal setting to meet people, isn’t it?
How important is networking now, really, to make sure you’re meeting new people?
Yeah, I don’t think anything’s changed. I still think it is really important, but I think the way people meet and where people meet has changed.
I think it’s becoming increasingly difficult to take time away from decision-makers within the sector, or in any sector, to meet for a coffee or a lunch, unless they really need to meet you for something. I just don’t think people are giving up their time in the same way because their time is probably more important now than it ever has been in our economic climate.
So I think the way people meet is changing. You see padel events popping up all of the time, run clubs, and other networking formats. I go to one called the Rockbourne Run Club on Wednesdays. They bring together senior CEOs from across the sector, and I’ve met people that way.
I think the way people meet is changing, but networking still remains important. You need to put yourself in those places where the people you want to meet may be.
I think, in a digital world and the day and age we’re living in now, face-to-face contact is more important than ever.
How important is that face-to-face contact still, and making sure you’re getting out and meeting people in person?
I think it’s more important now than it ever has been because it’s so much more of a competitive landscape than it ever has been.
To win business from new people, that’s not going to happen by sending them an email and hoping they’re going to give you some business. You need to build a relationship with them.
That also doesn’t come from meeting them once. They’ve already got their relationships established. If you’re looking to take that relationship away from whoever they’re currently using and bring it towards your business, that’s going to come from spending time getting to know that person and being in the right place at the right time when they may be considering their options.
So, still extremely important.
Yeah. It sets you apart a little bit, doesn’t it? It’s putting a face to a name and creating that human interaction.
Yeah. People always say that people want to work with who they like, and if they don’t like you, they’re probably not going to work with you.
It’s about building that relationship and understanding, “I want to meet this CEO” or whoever it may be. Understanding what they actually enjoy and how you can meet them in an environment where they enjoy being.
Naturally, you’re going to have a better start to your relationship rather than forcing something in a different setting.
Can you think of a time where you’ve had a face-to-face interaction with someone and it’s generated a lead, business opportunity, or a really interesting relationship?
Yeah. I think for anyone who knows me, it’s no surprise that I really love MIPIM in the south of France. I think it’s a fantastic conference.
Those chance encounters don’t happen anywhere else. Well, maybe now they happen at Wigmore Wednesdays, hopefully.
I can give a couple of examples. One that springs to mind is from two years ago. I was at a champagne reception and, the following day, I met a lady who worked at a company in London. The chairman of that company invited me into the office when I got back from MIPIM to meet him.
At the time, I was working in a role where we were looking for sites throughout the UK. Following a meeting with that person, I got a phone call with Sir Gerald Ronson.
That would never have happened if I hadn’t been at MIPIM. I know 100% that I would never otherwise have come into contact with those people. Our paths simply wouldn’t have crossed.
So I do think those meeting places remain really important.
Another example is launching in Leicester. We were approached in person by the council. I’d met them four years previously at MIPIM. Again, I live in London, so how am I ever going to come into contact with Leicester City Council? It’s just not going to happen naturally.
So I really do think those meeting places remain very important.
What would be your advice for establishing genuine professional connections versus just a surface-level connection?
Maybe it’s best to talk about how I would go about doing that.
If I was going to any conference or event, I don’t think I would ever ask the person what they do. Ever. I would always start by understanding who they are and what their interests are. I think interests are a really important thing to understand because that’s ultimately what they’re passionate about.
Getting to know that person on a personal level makes a huge difference. I went to a Cushman & Wakefield drinks event last week and was chatting to a guy. Before I even understood what his job was, I knew that he had three dogs, what their names were, where he lived, and what he enjoyed doing. Already, we had a much more natural conversation together.
That then creates a much greater chance that he would want to meet me again because I came across as a nice person and was genuinely interested in him first and foremost, rather than what I could get from him.
That would be my advice to anyone. Whenever you’re starting a professional relationship, really understand what makes that person tick. That will give you the best starting point for developing a genuinely strong relationship with them, rather than staying at a surface level of, “What’s your job? What can you do for me? How quickly can I win your business?”
Yeah, I mean, even when we met and were talking, we realised we live literally roads apart.
Exactly. Developing common interests with somebody helps the relationship feel familiar. They’re also buying into you. Are you coming across as somebody they would want to work with?
If you start your conversation by thinking about yourself and asking, “What can I get from this person?”, they’re probably not very likely to do any business with you.
So that would be my advice. Get to know the person before you find out what you can get from them.
Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think people need to understand what makes other people tick. If you do that in a friendly way, then hopefully both people get the desired outcome from the relationship. It’s give and take.
Yeah. Especially when you might want them to change who they work with or you’re hoping for something more than a surface-level interaction.
If somebody came to me and wanted me to change the law firm I was working with, for instance, why would I stop using the law firm I’m already happy with? I’m happy with their pricing, they’re delivering a great service, so why would I move to another law firm, just because they’ve asked for my business? I don’t know anything about them.
But if that person takes the time to get to know me and meets me over a period of time, then if something happens with that law firm that I’m not happy with, that’s when I’m going to come back and think, “God, who was that person I met? They were lovely. I’m going to find out if they can help me with this.”
That’s the best way to go about it.
Yeah, I completely agree.
Would you say not doing that is probably the biggest mistake people can make?
Yeah, I do. Although I think, typically, as you get older, you learn how to go about your business. You understand from possibly making mistakes when you’re younger.
When you lead with, “Me, me, me. What can I get out of this situation?”, you soon realise that’s not a very effective way to get something out of somebody.
So possibly it’s an age thing as well. But no, that would not be my advice, because you probably won’t get what you want.
Yeah, absolutely.
Unless they’re desperate, obviously.
Unless they have no other option.
Exactly.
You might get lucky, but generally speaking, it’s not a successful way of doing it.
I think real estate as a sector and industry is still quite a male-dominated area. There may be some women who have reservations or are unsure about how to enter the industry, start networking, and make a name for themselves.
What advice would you give to women looking to get into real estate and start building their network?
Yeah, it’s a difficult one to answer. On a personal level, I’m such a confident person, and I don’t know where that came from, but I’ve always been like that. I’ve never struggled with walking into rooms or feeling like I don’t deserve to be there.
But I know 100% that isn’t the case for 99.9% of women.
I think it starts with owning it. Walk into a room and don’t feel intimidated by the fact there are men in that room. Own the space and have the confidence to go in.
In years gone by at MIPIM, if I was attending alone, I would always rope in a friend to come with me. When you’re there as a pair, people are automatically more likely to come over and speak to you, and you’ve got the confidence of being there together.
So if you’re thinking about attending networking events, I would advise going with a colleague. Whether that’s a man or a woman doesn’t really matter. Going together will probably mean more people approach you.
But ultimately, it comes back to owning the fact that you deserve to be there. It doesn’t matter whether you’re a man or a woman, everybody deserves to be in that room if they’ve been invited.
Keep that in the back of your mind and go into conversations with confidence.
Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s such good advice. Going with somebody naturally gives you a bit more confidence, doesn’t it? So I think that’s really good advice.
What’s the best way to make the most out of a networking or conference event?
That’s a really good question because, having gone to lots of conferences, I feel like I’ve pretty much nailed this.
If we take something like UKREiiF or MIPIM as an example, because they’re probably the two biggest conferences in our sector, I would always tell people to book some things in advance.
Book your lunches and dinners. Those are key meeting points throughout the day, and you should try to get them arranged beforehand. If we’re talking about places like Cannes or Leeds, restaurants are often oversubscribed, so trying to organise something on the day can be really difficult.
Even if you don’t yet have people to invite, book the restaurants. Then, if you meet somebody interesting during the conference, you can say, “Could I invite you for dinner tonight?”
I’d say that’s number one.
At the same time, don’t book out your whole diary. Otherwise, you leave no room for those really interesting chance encounters. If you’ve booked your lunches, dinners, breakfasts, or whatever key meetings you want, you can leave space around those for meeting people by chance.
Some of my most successful MIPIMs came when I had almost nothing in the diary. A few years ago, I would go with virtually no plans and let people invite me to things. I might say yes to one or two events, but the rest of the time I deliberately kept my diary free because I genuinely believe conferences are the optimum place to meet people unexpectedly.
I’d much rather meet people I don’t already know than spend all my time meeting people I can see in London whenever I want. The whole point of attending a conference is to build on existing relationships and meet new people.
That would be my advice if you’re going to conferences.
That’s such good advice. I’d never think about booking things like that in advance. It just wouldn’t cross my mind. I can imagine somewhere like Cannes must be impossible when conferences are going on.
Yeah, it is. And I think another point I’d like to make about these conferences is that people often ask, and you see it on LinkedIn all the time, “How do I justify it?” You cannot expect to go to MIPIM or UKREiiF and get something out of it the first time you go.
It goes back to the point I made earlier about trying to get something out of somebody in a single meeting. Life just doesn’t work like that.
The best way to get value out of these conferences is to attend one, two, three, four, or even five times before you see a real return. Every time you go back, you’re starting from a higher base because you already know more people. Your invitations get better every year. You have more confidence because you know you’re going to attend and already have an existing network there.
You can’t approach these things thinking, “I’m going to go once and get something out of it.”
You can apply that principle to every aspect of life. You have to keep showing up. If it were that easy to get a deal from attending a conference once, nobody would ever go back again.
Let’s say you’ve been to a couple of conferences, as you suggested, and you’re building a reputation for yourself. What’s the best way to make sure the reputation you’re building is a good one?
I think I would start by saying, and it’s really obvious but not everybody does it, be a nice person.
If you’re not, people are unlikely to want to work with you.
Even if you can’t get something out of somebody immediately, if they remember you as a nice person and someone they enjoyed being around, someone with good energy, they’re likely to come back to you in the future.
There are so many examples I could give where I’ve met somebody once and wanted to have a meeting with them, but they were too busy. Then four or five years later, they’ve got back in touch because they remembered me.
More specifically, they remembered how I made them feel when we met. That sounds like a strange thing to say, but it’s genuinely true. If you leave a positive impression or create a positive experience for somebody, they are far more likely to reach out to you in the future.
Whether you can help them at that point is another question, but that would be my advice. Be nice to everyone you meet.
Yeah. That person will remember you and, regardless of where you work or where your career might take you, you’re still you. You’re taking your reputation with you wherever you go.
Yeah, exactly. It’s like that famous saying: on your way to the top, you never know who you’re going to meet on the way back down. I think Richard Branson may have said something like that.
But it’s really true. Generally, good things happen to good people. So that would be my advice.
Amazing. So many good tips and things I wouldn’t have thought of, to be honest. I’m ready for the next conference now.
Yeah.
What would Eleanor today say to herself ten years ago?
God, you wouldn’t have wanted to meet me ten years ago.
I would.
Probably just, “Calm down and think a bit more before you react.”
I’m someone who is very reactive. I say exactly what I think and I wear my heart on my sleeve, which for the most part is an amazing thing. But maybe I’d tell myself that everything is going to be okay.
I’ve always been quite resilient.
I’ve had quite an amazing career for someone at such a young age, and now with launching Wigmore Wednesdays, I think maybe the biggest thing would be more self-belief.
I think so many of us, especially women, doubt ourselves probably on a daily basis. But having self-belief, which goes back to some of the things I’ve already spoken about today, is probably the most powerful trait you can have as a human being because nobody else is going to do it for you.
So, yes, self-belief.
Yeah, self-belief and patience, I guess. Don’t run before you can walk.
Yeah. Don’t rush the process.
I’ve wanted to be a CEO since I was nineteen years old. I remember going on calls with colleagues and being asked, “Where do you want your career to go?” At the time, I was working at Virgin Media, and I specifically remember saying, “I’m going to be the CEO of Virgin Media one day.”
Who knows? Maybe I would have been. Obviously I’m not, because I’ve started something else now.
But it’s about trusting the process. I always think that what is meant for you won’t pass you by. Don’t try to rush ahead too much.
As young people, we always want the next thing. But to get to where you’re trying to go, you have to make mistakes along the way.
We could sit here for ten hours and talk about the mistakes I’ve made over the last ten years, but I wouldn’t be sitting here if I hadn’t made them. So I wouldn’t change a thing.
If someone came to the next Wigmore Wednesdays event, what would they expect from the evening? What would the experience be like for them?
Throughout my career, as I said, I’ve been to lots of MIPIMs, UKREiiFs and networking events. Going back to the point about how people feel when they walk into them, one of the fundamental things we’ve created is a space that’s welcoming.
It doesn’t matter whether you’re male or female. It doesn’t matter where you’re from. I want people to walk through that door and feel like they belong.
I truly believe we’ve created that.
I don’t know exactly how. I’m hoping it’s partly to do with me and my co-founder, Annabel, and the way we make people feel at ease. But I never want anyone to walk into one of our events and feel like they don’t belong, because they do.
We’ll do everything we can to continue developing that culture across every city we launch in.
So, yes, people can expect a warm and welcoming atmosphere. They can expect to meet people who are happy to talk to them because everyone is part of the same community.
That’s why communities are so important. You already have something in common.
Earlier, I talked about finding common ground with the people you want to do business with, whether that’s sport or something else. At our events, you’re already part of the community, so that’s already a talking point.
“How many Wigmore Wednesdays have you been to?”
That’s an easy conversation starter.
People can expect to meet nice, friendly people. Typically, the people who attend Wigmore Wednesdays are in the later stages of their careers. I would say our average age is probably around 45 to 60, so a lot of decision-makers.
It’s a great place to come and meet new people in a relaxed and welcoming setting and, hopefully, do a deal or two.
